Pursue your passion. Become a Career Renegade: Interview with Career Expert Jonathan Fields
Post written by Leo Babauta. Follow me on Twitter.
Author, blogging friend, and career expert Jonathan Fields has launched his new book today: Career Renegade: How to Make a Great Living Doing What You Love
I’m happy to have him as a guest on Zen Habits to talk about his new book and how it will help us all pursue the career we’ve always dreamed about.
Disclaimer: Jonathan is a blogging friend of mine, as I mentioned, and I was interviewed for this book and I’m in one of the chapters. But after reading through my review copy, I saw that the book would be useful to many people and thought I’d interview Jonathan to let you know more about it.
Leo: On the book’s web page, you say that “Do What You Love And The Money Will Follow” Is A Scam … can you explain this? It seems to go against what most of us believe.
Jonathan: If your passion happens to lie in some field with a clear path to a great income, like law, plastic surgery or programming, you may be one of the lucky few who can make a great living doing what you love by simply following the mainstream path.
But, what if you love teaching, painting, making music, writing, knitting, playing video games or just plain hanging out and having great conversations? Then what? Will the money really just automatically follow if you try to turn those into your living? Doubtful, no matter how good a gamer, knitter or talker you are.
No doubt, there’s a lot of simplifying you can do to live a lot better on less. Your book does an amazing job of laying out that process. But, what if you do all that…and it’s still not enough? It’s not easy to support a family of four in a major city on a teacher’s salary, no matter how much you streamline your life.
So, if there’s no “mainstream” way to make enough money to live well in the world with your passion, conventional wisdom says either turn it into a hobby or accept that you’ll have to either sacrifice money for passion or passion for money.
Career Renegade is all about breaking the binds of conventional wisdom, doing what you love, then “making” the money follow.
Leo: Tell us how Career Renegade is a game-changer and a life-changer… what will it change for us? And what is a Career Renegade?
Jonathan: Here’s what makes this book really different. It says, even if there’s no clear “conventional” way to generate income around your passion, the next logical step is not sacrifice. Nor is it relegating your passion to wallow in hobby-land.
There is often a “renegade” path to both passion and prosperity, a different way to do what you love that’ll generate enough to live comfortably. And, laying those paths out is what this book is all about.
Career Renegade is one part inspiration and 9 parts action. Its packed with hundreds of strategies, case studies, links and resources. It covers everything from identifying and refining your passion to tapping technology to position yourself as the go-to person in the area of your passion, then leveraging your reputation and community to create the opportunities you need. Leo, you’re actually a perfect example of this (which is why you’re in the book).
It also busts a bunch of myths about careers, entrepreneurship and, to a certain extent, mindset and personal development. For example, when it comes to mindset, I’m a big believer in visualization. But, did you know there are two very different approaches to visualization, and there’s great published research about which one works better?
In fact, the one promoted by the vast majority of people isn’t the one that delivers the best results. I go into both styles in the book, share the research, then show what works best and when.
Okay, last thing—what is a Career Renegade? It’s someone who makes a conscious effort to build their living around the life they want to life, the activities and experiences they love to do and the people they just cannot get enough of, while also earning enough to live well in the world.
Leo: Lots of my readers are having trouble finding their passion … can you give a couple of tips on how they could get started finding it?
Jonathan: I guess it won’t surprise you to learn I am a bit of a contrarian here, too. I don’t really believe people don’t know what their passions are. We all know. We’ve known since were little kids. Maybe not the exact jobs, but we do know what makes us come alive.
The problem is, when we ask the question in the context of careers, we almost always bundle with a “part 2.” We ask, “what am I passionate about…that will make a lot of money?” When we add that dangling participle, we end up dangling our passions in the wind. So, step one. Stop doing that!
Take the money part of the equation off the table, even if for a moment. When you do this, activities, ideas, adventures and explorations start flooding in.
A great starting point is to ask…
“If I won the lottery, and it was enough to support me for the rest of my life, but a condition was that I had to work full-time at something and I couldn’t use that money to fund a business, what would I do?”
Then, begin to refine. Ask what you’ve done in the past that has delivered you into what famed psychology researcher and professor, Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi, called a state of “flow” (I go into this in detail in the book).
Next, go one level deeper and ask “who” makes you come alive? What type of people?
Finally, look at what you love to read, what you do when you have free time (other than sleeping and watching TV). You get the picture.
Leo: Leaving your day job to pursue your passion is a scary thing, for anybody. How do you overcome that fear to take the plunge?
Jonathan: First, very often, you can test the waters or start to build your renegade career on the side, before making the big leap into the next big adventure.
You are a great example. For the better part of your first year as a blogger, you still worked a “real” job, until you’d built Zen Habits and various other passion-driven income streams into a stable enough side-pursuit to make the jump.
Second, you’ve got to rally your rabbis. What does mean? Work like crazy to assemble a team of like-minded people who will be honest, but still support your quest. You may also need to spend a lot of time convincing those closest to you that you’re not just plain losing it (trust me, been there). I actually tapped my marketing background to lay out a process in the book to make this a lot easier and smooth a lot of bumps.
Last thing, mindset is critical. You’ve got to cultivate the “just watch me” mindset. This will be instrumental in cultivating the will to take daily action toward your vision. And, honestly, that’s the single most important factor in any success. Consistent action. So, implement a set of daily mindset practices that’ll keep you focused not on what can go wrong, but on what can and will go right.
Leo: Is there a certain type of person who would be best for this kind of thing — to become a Career Renegade — or can anyone do it?
Jonathan: I’d love to say anyone can pull it off. And, truth is, anyone can. But, the more self-directed you are, the more motivated to finally get what you want out of live you are, the more likely you’ll be to succeed.
Also, if your current quest is simply figuring out how to make enough to cover your fundamental living expenses, to pay your rent and put the most basic amount of food on the table for your family, you’ll likely be less motivated by the desire to earn a living doing what you love and more by your basic instinct to survive.
As we know from Maslow, until you’ve got survival covered, it’s difficult to focus on the other elements in the hierarchy of needs.
Leo: What happens if you take the plunge and go for your dreams, but don’t make enough money? Do you think that happens very often?
Jonathan: So, one thing I’m not going tell you is that this is easy. It’s not. It may be one of the hardest things you’ll ever do. But, here’s the thing. We’re talking about the one thing that will likely consume the vast majority of your waking hours until the day you either retire or die. So, sure, it’s a giant, challenge…but it’s a challenge worth rising to!
Whether you succeed in this or any other life-changing endeavor is largely a factor of your approach. It’s no different than any other big-picture quest. There’s no magic to it. No secret strategy, key, button or pill.
- Identify your genuine passion,
- Test for viability/market demand and adapt,
- Acquire the knowledge and assets you need to act,
- Cultivate the renegade mindset,
- Rally your inner and upper circles
- Define and commit to daily action, then
- Take consistent action, without excuse, until you reach your goal.
That formula wins pretty much every time.
So, when you look at people who take the plunge and come up short, you can pretty much always look at each one of those items and pick out where there was a breakdown. And, if you’re game, go back to the broken element, adapt and revise, and jump back in.
Leo: Tell us briefly about your career — are you a living illustration of your principles?
Jonathan: I’ve been an entrepreneur since I was a kid, but somehow ended up in law school. When I got out, I worked for the S.E.C., then a few years later, jumped to a mega-firm in NYC. Two weeks into my stint, I ended up in the hospital in emergency surgery, having perforated my intestine and developed a big pelvic abcess (simmering ball of infection).
Thankfully, the surgery went well and I made a full recovery, but it was a wake up call, my body had literally rejected my career. So, I made a list of things I thought would be cool to do for a living. It became clear that most people who did the things on my list, most of which involved health and fitness, didn’t make much money.
I was convinced I could be different, but I knew it would take time to figure out how. So I started preparing, spent a while saving up enough money to cover the early leg of my next big adventure, then eventually walked away from the law.
In fact, I went from making six-figures to earning $12 an hour as a personal trainer. Yikers! But, within a short period of time, I’d figured a better mousetrap. Soon after, I opened my own facility and grew it big enough to sell to investors 2 ½ years later.
I’d also discovered a passion for writing, so I took some time to write, but then the yoga side of the wellness industry began to call me back in. I’d developed an interest in yoga as a practitioner, and that sparked my entrepreneurial jones, too.
So, a month and a half after 9-11, with a 3-month old daughter, I opened a yoga studio in the heart of New York City. Man, did I get a lot of rolled eyeballs. But, over the next 7 years, that studio grew into one of the top studios in Manhattan.
And, as it matured and needed less of my energy, it gave me the time to turn my energy back to writing. And, at the end of last year, I actually sold the studio to focus on writing, blogging and a number of other ventures that I’ll reveal as 2009 unfolds.
——-
Thanks so much for the incredible opportunity to share a bit of what I care so much about with your fantastic community.
Leo: Thanks for talking with us, Jonathan. Readers, I highly encourage you to check out Jonathan’s book, Career Renegade: How to Make a Great Living Doing What You Love
- Spewed into the world on 13 January 2009 in Books, Goals & Motivation, Productivity & Organization |
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Brilliant comments (52)
Writer Dad Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:09 am
Wow, Jonathan. Your book sounds wonderful. You make some truly excellent points, but I have to say my favorite part of was this:
“I’d love to say anyone can pull it off. And, truth is, anyone can. But, the more self-directed you are, the more motivated to finally get what you want out of live you are, the more likely you’ll be to succeed.”
It’s so true. Things don’t just happen, we make them happen.
Corey - Simple Marriage Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:10 am
Congrats Jonathan! It’s so great to see people who follow their passion and by doing so are in a position to help others do the same in their life.
Trevor - 14 Year Old Money Blogger Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:12 am
Interesting book Jonathan and awesome interview as well!
Volker Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:17 am
Hello,
You ever read “Turning Passion into Profits”? Christopher Howard uses NLP very smartly to tell you all you need.
http://ballueder.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/good-reading-motivational-reading/
Let me know.
Volker
Nicolai - Happiness Cafe Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:21 am
Exciting interview with a lot good points, I definite take a look at your book some time soon, when I’m done travelling.
Best of luck to your project Jonathan.
Chris Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:36 am
Sounds like this will be a great follow on book for me to read once I have finished “What should I do with my life” by Po Bronson. Step 1 - Find passion (I have loads of interests but feel I need to find the ‘one’ to focus on). Step 2 - Turn the passion in to what I do for a living.
Andrew Galasetti Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:44 am
I was also fortunate enough to read an advanced copy of Career Renegade and I strongly recommend it!
Not only is Jonathan a really nice guy, but he talks the talk and walks the walk, and he wants to teach millions more how to as well.
-Andrew
ChasingSanity.com Says:
January 13th, 2009, 10:54 am
I think for many people, myself included, we need to balance our passion with the reality that we need a “real” paycheck. It is sometimes easier to try generating revenue from your true passion on the side, and hope that it takes off.
The other side of this coin is realizing that there is passion in any line of work, so long as one dials into it. Well . . . most lines of work anyway.
Deborah Kunzie Says:
January 13th, 2009, 11:03 am
Great interview and very realistic approach. Makes me glad when I see writers sharing the real of something as opposed to all the glitz and glamor and promises of something that takes hard work and a passion mixed. Good job, will now go and buy the book!
Thanks
Scott Williams Says:
January 13th, 2009, 11:21 am
Nice… Career Renegade; Set Godin talks about the importance of being a Heretic in his book Tribes.
“Heretics and Renegades are the new passionate leaders!”
I like!
Gennaro @ Enduring Wanderlust Says:
January 13th, 2009, 11:32 am
If you struggle to make money doing what you love…in the end, the consolation prize is spending time doing what you love. It’s always possible to do something different later.
Tabitha (From Single to Married) Says:
January 13th, 2009, 11:59 am
I am so glad I read this. I have been thinking about the possibility of expanding/changing careers for some time now and after reading this post, I feel motivated to look into it further. But first I’m going to go get his book…
Jonathan Fields Says:
January 13th, 2009, 12:05 pm
Hey everyone - thanks so much for the kind words. And, thanks, again, Leo, for allowing me to share in your fantastic community.
No doubt, this is an interesting time to be exploring the intersection between passion and prosperity. I have a family to support in NYC, so I have to earn a good living.
The cool thing is, there are now so many potential ways to build your Career Renegade path on the side until it’s successful enough to convince you to either make the jump or move into more of a blended career.
One of the guys I interviewed for the book, Joe Alban, took 20 years to slowly make the transition from orthopedic surgeon to…coffee farmer! If you’ve ever had Kona Joe coffee, guess, what, you’re drinking Dr. Joe’s beans. :-)
Very Evolved Says:
January 13th, 2009, 12:20 pm
Hi Johnathan,
Your logical process is very reassuring, especially your thoughts on the most important step - the first:
In science and life the hardest part of getting a great result is asking the right question in the first place.
Your site (and I’m sure your book) is a fount of information. Congratulations!
Patrick
Steve @ Freedom Education Says:
January 13th, 2009, 12:23 pm
Hey Jonathan - you’re one of a kind, a true renegade.
And I agree with what you’re saying, first find your passion then find a way to earn a great income from it.
I think most people stop (like you suggested) when they can’t find a way to earn income from their passion - they give up too soon, instead of being persistent and allowing “a way” to show up.
….As for most, the discovery of true prosperity was just around the corner :)
D Says:
January 13th, 2009, 12:51 pm
Great Post! I don’t know if it’s the New Year or just that time in my life but this post could not have come at a better time.
Thanks.
malang Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:04 pm
Jonathan, great post.
What do you think about the people who try to juggle between 2-3 of their passions. Should they chose one and stick to it or is it a sensible thing to distribute time/energy between them?
Dan Massicotte Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:18 pm
I’ve always said that most people can find what defines them by going back to when they were 6-10 years old. Then, we tended to have less/no fear and did whatever we wanted.
As people grow older they loose sight of their passions because they “grow up.” Ironically, they have to face these questions at mid-life crisis or career burnout.
Jonathan Fields Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:18 pm
@ malang - Great question about turning multiple passions into one career. I think it’s definitely doable. In fact, I am an example of that.
But, it also depends on (1) what your passions are, (2) how you choose to bring to life professionally, and (3) whether each is the type of pursuit that is capable of flourishing on the level you’d like if pursued part-time. And, that’s a very individual exploration
One other thing, instead of building all at once, you can apply Leo’s approach to developing a new habit here, too. Start with one, build it to a point where it’s real and stable and then, if it makes sense, explore adding on.
Keith Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:18 pm
Your partner better have similar passion or the foresight to let you alone. 25 years ago my wife knew I was not happy with my “chosen” profession, the boring one that I thought I should pursue, and encouraged me to look at the things I wanted to do. Bless her for that. I was hired and grew to be very successful at a job that incorporated all I wanted to do. My passion though was consuming and she came to despise me for that. One day my boss told me he wanted to sell the company and if there was a time to get out it was now. I started my own business. My wife liked that even less. I have become successful at that too, and love the variety of my job. I also live in the basement. Beware of following your passion too closely.
Volker Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:40 pm
Hello again,
Ilove this post as it shows how many people are interested in personal development and in coaching.
Without being pushy :-) I do offer coaching and consulting services. However, I am also a strong believer that you find your true passion from within.
I write a couple of blogs, including my personal blurb, http://ballueder.wordpress.com where I write about NLP, Personal Development and what is going on in my life. It relates to http://www.cb-consulting.co.uk.
Also of interest could be my project http://www.balamadana.com and its blog I write with my Buddhist friend, http://blog.balamadana.com - have a look, leave a comment and let me know what you think.
One discussion there was about “does it really matter which path we choose? do we not end up where we are supposed to end up anyway?”.
Cheers
Volker
Bruce Barber Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:43 pm
Sounds like an amazing book - I plan to pick it up as soon as possible.
I left my “dream job” (as a morning radio host) to become an independent producer and blogger. It’s a scary step to take, but I’m lucky enough to have a wife that’s able to support our family, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Now, how to make my passions pay…
15 Minutes to Riches! Says:
January 13th, 2009, 13:46 pm
Wow! You sold me…
I’m picking up the book today.
Thanks!
Kelly Says:
January 13th, 2009, 15:13 pm
Of couse, Jonathan hits a home run again! I’ve added the book to my Amazon wish list and will continue to watch his incredible success!
The Personal Finance Playbook Says:
January 13th, 2009, 15:17 pm
On your body rejecting your career…I’m a lawyer, too, and as of right now I don’t know if I can do it for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, I don’t know that I have a choice. I’m trying to survive, get my wife through med school, etc. I love the advice though. Very inspirational.
Julie Acda (Fitness Wife) Says:
January 13th, 2009, 16:22 pm
Great post! Jonathan - you’re truly an example to live by. Your book sounds really great!
You mentioned those “eyeball rollers” and that you may need to spend a lot of time convincing them that you’re not nutty. My strategy has been to avoid them all together or not talk about what I’m doing. I have my supporters who I stay close to, but for those who don’t support me, I don’t want to waste my time convincing them. If they’re too stubborn in their beliefs, and if can, I choose to not associate with them or to base our relationship on other things.
Bunny Says:
January 13th, 2009, 16:32 pm
I seriously have no idea what my passion is. I am not concerned about money (it would be great, sure, but I’d mostly love to be productive instead of a receptionist!) when evaluating. I just like many things, but nothing so much that I feel drawn to it. I feel stifled by all the choices in this world.
I love the million dollar question, but the only thing I could think was, “What’s the point if I have to work?” I’m going to think on it some more though.
Erick - FutureFireFighter.com Says:
January 13th, 2009, 16:52 pm
Wow, this sounds great. Just the kind of book i’ve been looking for. I see it’s already got 5 starts on amazon!
Maya Says:
January 13th, 2009, 17:21 pm
I knew Jonathan from his blog, even before he announced the launch of Career Renegade. I pre-ordered the book a while ago just cause I loved the energy and sensible passion Jonathan displayed in his posts.
I look forward to reading the book Jonathan. I wish you all the best!
Jonathan Fields Says:
January 13th, 2009, 17:28 pm
Hey everyone - blown away by the well wishes and kind words. I can’t wait to see what unfolds once the word spreads and people start acting on the information and inspiration.
You guys rock! :-)
Ryan McLean Says:
January 13th, 2009, 17:45 pm
This is a great interview and I wish you the best of luck in marketing and selling you book. It seems pretty top quality so it should sell fine.
Rob Says:
January 13th, 2009, 17:54 pm
We all have daydreams of working towards achieving our passions. But often, that is as far as we get — idle daydreams which we have no idea how to make real. These daydreams are, in fact, seeds of possibilities that need to be nurtured. By actively imagining possibilities for your future, you begin to explore the clues your imagination holds about what you love to do.
You need to figure out your potential. No one else can know what makes your heart leap, keeps you up reading late into the night, or draws you to it like a magnet. So you need to put yourself in the driver’s seat and take control of your search for your bliss.
jessica Says:
January 13th, 2009, 18:03 pm
Thanks, Jonathan.
I can’t wait to read the book.
Right now I am working so hard towards getting my dreams - I know I’ll get there eventually!
The Daily Minder Says:
January 13th, 2009, 19:31 pm
Great interview. Really looking forward to the book.
1sttimedad Says:
January 13th, 2009, 20:40 pm
I am lucky enough to already make a living doing my passion, but I’m being fast-tracked by my boss to become her and I have no interest in working 18 hour days so somebody else can get rich(er).
I can’t wait to read the book to see if there’s a way I can do this on my own.
And best of luck to you Jonathan, I will be sure to go check out your blog.
LisaNewton Says:
January 14th, 2009, 0:19 am
I’ve already bought the book (highly anticipating its arrival) and look forward to reading it.
Thank you, Jonathan, and I wish you the best of luck with everything in your life.
Vincent Says:
January 14th, 2009, 2:23 am
Hey Jonathan, I love your life story and I believe your book will definitely be as interesting. I admire your courage for dropping your job in pursue of things you love. Wish you luck, Jonathan.
Cheers
Vincent
Personal Development Blogger
bmeyer Says:
January 14th, 2009, 3:12 am
This is the best site I’ve gone to in years. Thanks to Tim Ferris for the link.
Jonathan, can I visit you if I’m ever in Guam?
Man! I love this site!!!!!
Ioan Says:
January 14th, 2009, 4:43 am
Hello Jonathan, Hello Everyone,
I was a Sales Executive, driving a BMW, for a Software Company, wearing suits, visiting important people until I went to a coaching training.
I left the Corporation and the great benefits. Now I live fully as a Coach. It was very challenging sometimes, but the journey was beautiful. I evolved very much by listening to my heart (passion) and now I am a FREE person.
I wrote a metaphor about the whole journey. Feel free to read it to see what Jonathan says from another angle. ;-)
http://inspiredachievement.ro/empower/be-a-gardener-aligned-with-your-garden-and-the-universe/
Thank you Zen Habits! Thank you Universe,
i
J.D. Meier Says:
January 14th, 2009, 5:33 am
Leo - great interview and precision.
Jonathon - I love the fact you debunked the myth behind just following your passion for profit. I agree — you have to know the interplay of business and life. I like to think of work as, what’s the most effective way I can fund my life style, and then find the passion … and ultimately, make more time for my passions (through effective career shaping).
dr aletta Says:
January 14th, 2009, 8:25 am
So many books, so little time! Jonathon, your voice is so encouraging. Thank you.
A year ago my husband and I decided he should leave a ’safe’ tenure track position to launch his own company. His love for science was suffocating at the University.
Now with our income drastically reduced, we are so much happier as a family. Even though it may take a while to see the financial dividends we feel confident they will come. Meanwhile we take great joy in the now and are excited to see what’s around the corner.
RJ - Our Financial Planner Says:
January 14th, 2009, 12:13 pm
Jonathan and Leo,
Great interview. Looking forward to reading your book. It sounds like I’m not the only one who is in a similar situation regarding their career.
Thanks,
RJ
Jonathan Fields Says:
January 14th, 2009, 12:21 pm
@ Everyone - catching up here on last night’s comments. Thanks, again, for all the kind words. it was so important to me to keep the book “real,” and not try to sell any myths.
Some of you brought up an interesting point about the pull of your passion becoming so strong it literally starts to take you away from the relationships that mean most to you. No doubt, that is a very real challenge when you love what you do.
The way I handle it is to set up daily and weekly check-ins, where I look at how I’ve allocated both my time and my attention (not always the same thing). If it’s not in sync with what I hold dear, I make a very directed effort to re-allocate.
And, that’s even meant sometimes leaving money on the table in the name of spending more time nourishing the relationships that mean most to me. But, that’s okay, because, in the end, our legacies really do start at home.
Prasanna Says:
January 14th, 2009, 14:17 pm
Highly inspirational. I am eager to read the complete book. But, as I am in India, it will be pretty costly for me. So, I have to think twice before ordering a copy. ANH, I am gonna keep this book in my watch list.
Carla Says:
January 14th, 2009, 15:01 pm
I’m definitely looking forward to reading your book. My issue with starting my business is that I’m now pulled in so many different directions (especially with my 50 hour week job). I have to have to patience (and ENERGY!) to stick it out!
The Vital Muse Says:
January 14th, 2009, 21:47 pm
Just bought the book from Amazon. Question for me is: when are you too “old” to reinvent yourself? At 55, I’m still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up — though I have clearly identified my passions. Escaping the corporate culture after 30 years is my latest challenge… Looking forward to the read.
Volker Says:
January 15th, 2009, 4:38 am
@Virtual Muse
You are never too old to change your direction, your passion or life.
It all lies within you and you decide what you want to do. Finding the YOU is a different story.
Vince Says:
January 15th, 2009, 10:46 am
Excellent interview.
I appreciate the frankness that for many turning a passion into a well-paying job/business is going to be difficult. It’s a very seductive idea but difficult to pull off.
Office Humorist Says:
April 11th, 2009, 14:49 pm
great post–look forward to reading the book. similar to your “if you won the lottery” way of identifying passion, i always think, “what would I do if I knew the Mayans were right about the world ending in 2012.”
it puts into context the importance of doing something that you love.
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